Episode 218: The Wish Version of Event Horizon [Tulpa]

Cameron 06:34

So. Now. Yeah yeah.

Dave 06:44

You can't fit a lot of people in that arch I'm I'm just saying. Yeah yeah, well anyway, we we are We are all here and we are ready to discuss the.

Cameron 06:47

It.

Matthew 06:49

Yeah, the elevators are cool. They're engineering Marvel but um, yeah.

Cameron 06:55

And.

Dave 07:02

2020 film the empty man which was technically filmed in 2017 but released in 2020 it is directed by David Fryor who we just discussed when we were watching the cabinet of curiosities and he directed the fantastic the autopsy segment.

Cameron 07:18

So yes.

Leonard 07:19

Yes, and hey guess what this film looks looks good too. It's a pre looking film. That's the positive that I will say during the this discussion exactly.

Matthew 07:19

Yeah, got us real hype for this one.

Cameron 07:28

And.

Matthew 07:29

Um, ah.

Cameron 07:32

I.

Dave 07:34

Ah, just front loaded this 2 hour long episode with hey it looked good.

Matthew 07:35

Ah, yeah, yeah, look great.

Leonard 07:38

It looks really great like every single time. There's a really good shot I'm just like man that looks really good I'm I can tell I can tell that it's the same director but man.

Dave 07:43

Ah. Yeah, it looks good unless it's the interior of a building at night then it just looks like darkness. So.

Cameron 07:48

Yeah.

Matthew 07:52

Yeah, stark now before we get going here I think we should probably just do a small content warning. Well big content warning for for suicide in this. It's a lot of suicide heavy things. And yeah.

Leonard 07:53

Now.

Cameron 07:54

Yeah. So oh yeah, oh yeah.

Dave 08:08

Yeah, kind of part and parcel of the whole the whole thing unfortunately, ah yeah, so this this film is based on a series of graphic novels by um Colin bun and it's ah a 3

Cameron 08:10

So.

Matthew 08:11

But yeah.

Dave 08:25

Volume set micro multi-issue run. The first volume was the issues that were illustrated by Vanessa R Del Rey ah and the subsequent issues I've lost that page actually so they were illustrated by other other folks.

Cameron 08:38

Yeah.

Dave 08:43

Um, yeah.

Matthew 08:44

And they're good like but illustrations like and just just perusing them and whatever it's it's that really fun. What year did this comic come out. It was like mid 2000 s right? Oh yeah, later than that.

Dave 08:56

Ah, twenty fourteen was the first the yeah, the first empty man collected edition and then the 2018 to 2019 was the hisus irvase so which is really weird. So the the final 2 parts of the story. Um.

Cameron 09:07

And.

Dave 09:14

Came out after this movie did um, which may explain some things I think that some issues I may have had with the latter 2 parts of the of the comic we will. We will get around to that after we kind of discuss what.

Cameron 09:15

So in I think.

Matthew 09:18

Ah.

Leonard 09:18

Ah.

Matthew 09:22

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 09:32

What this whole thing is what is the empty man. No one knows he's quite empty. Um, yeah, so we'll we'll go this way actually before discussing the movie cameron is this did you watch this just now.

Cameron 09:44

Yes. And yes, this was my first time viewing this film might not be my last I might rewatch this eventually. But yeah, first time first time viewer longtime podcaster hello.

Dave 09:49

Like for the just for this episode. Okay, Matthew how about yourself.

Cameron 10:05

Ah.

Leonard 10:05

Ah.

Matthew 10:06

Yeah, this was the first I've ever heard of it after last week's episode. We were talking about what to do and you guys are like this has a director from kava curiosities. You know it has sort of a yog softhoth kind of vibe to it. Um, ah.

Cameron 10:16

Yeah, yeah. So.

Matthew 10:25

And we were just like yeah let's rock and roll. Let's do it and um I mean it's interesting then the seeds are there to make something amazing. But yeah.

Dave 10:37

Yeah I really should have just sold you on the comic and not the not the movie as much. Ah, yeah, it's it's there's there's enough to talk about for sure Leonard how about you.

Cameron 10:39

Ah.

Matthew 10:40

Ah, that's our I'm still having fun. Oh for sure. Yeah.

Leonard 10:40

Um. Ah, yes, first viewing but I had unfortunately spoiled myself on the entire narrative thrust of the film before watching it and also suggesting it to. For us to finally cover on the podcast because we had been meaning to do so for quite a while.

Cameron 11:06

And.

Dave 11:08

Yeah, we we brought this up I think to one another in 2020 like when this came out. We're like yeah this this right up our alley. Um and lo and behold. It just took three more years to actually get around to it so for for myself it the same I I watched this.

Leonard 11:14

Ah.

Dave 11:26

This episode. Um while I'll being familiar with it existing and I had read the comics in the interim and then again for this coverage just just to kind of get that clarified. Yeah, um, this movie is. Hold On. There's a plane and. And there goes the plane. Um yeah I have a little footnote tab. So I just have like edits this plane. So I know when to cut stuff out of there. Yeah so um, this movie.

Cameron 12:21

Um, yeah, that's my right.

Matthew 12:21

Eyes.

Dave 12:30

The the long and short of the plot an actual summary that we somehow seem to not actually do show. So the summary is there is a group of folks that travel to.

Cameron 12:34

So. The.

Dave 12:50

Bhutan and become cursed the movie the rest of the movie is that the effects of that curse um manifesting and being investigated by a former detective who is looking for the missing daughter of his.

Cameron 12:51

Yes, yes.

Dave 13:09

Ah neighbor he's helping his neighbor out trying to find her missing daughter and runs a foul of a weird cult and unravels what sort of happened to the hikers that had traveled to Bhutan that's that's the movie.

Cameron 13:22

Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. Yeah.

Dave 13:27

So the long and short of it all right? Let's go to the comic but not.

Matthew 13:27

More or less. Yeah, yeah, right.

Leonard 13:29

Um, yes.

Dave 13:35

Okay, Cameron so what did you think of how this movie structured because it's it's a long in the tooth. It's a little over 2 hours long and the prologue and the title card drop is like.

Cameron 13:36

Oh yes. Yeah. And yeah, yeah, absolutely I Really enjoyed that prologue which I think sort of fits just as a short horror film on its own is again throughout the film. The film is in general really nicely shot. But this in particular, really great vistas.

Dave 13:52

20 minutes into the movie.

Cameron 14:11

Really good close shots that kind of stuff and you know lots of little creepy details and things really loved that opening and I was surprised by how long it was I thought maybe we weren't going to get a title drop at all which would have been an interesting choice honestly and then we get to the rest of the movie. Um, we've we talked about this a bit in the green room. There is an aft after that prologue there is a sort of extended Investigate. What's going on with the teens section.

Where the the chaos of whatever is going on is affecting the local high schoolers and our protagonist is as an ex-cop obviously investigating what's going on and see if he can find his neighbor's daughter that kind of drags a bit. Not too much but it definitely feels like it overstays its welcome and then we sort of move on from that to secondary plot of investigating a cult in in these in the shape of a sort of scientology-esque selflightenment program and that is. A little more gripping but also feels just kind of long. It's I don't I don't need horror films to be snappy but like it's sometimes I want things to just happen and occasionally they don't for another fifteen twenty minutes um the the part where he investigates the campsite is excellent and that's a great sequence. Very good and then the movie sort of starts wrapping up and I feel like the the ending sort of 20 to 30 minutes is good like that feels like it's paste all right. Feels like it fits correctly, yeah, it's just sort of it's got a little extra padding in the center of the film that I feel maybe doesn't do it.

Do it the best justice it could um you know just cut cut a little bit of cut a little bit of that sort of more creepy pasta less actual background cult stuff.

Out and I think that will probably be for the best. But.

Dave 16:25

So yeah I mean I will we'll get to it as we get through the whole thing. But yeah I pretty much agree with that assessment Matthew tell us what's going on with these kids in their rumor mill.

Matthew 16:37

Oh my God So this it's like it's it's weird. Um, this is it's It's a creepy pasta thing but there's like no one knows the origin of it arming characters kid.

Cameron 16:40

What's with the kids. And.

Matthew 16:54

Does the thing ah to call the slender man the empty man. Um, ah yeah, the bye-bye man whatever you want to call him this week ah and then these teens who like at 1 point is specifically stated that.

Leonard 17:00

The Bye Bye man.

Dave 17:04

Candy man.

Matthew 17:12

She's eighteen. There's nothing we can do. She's allowed to leave home and they just I'm like that's a really weird thing to say her exact age and then we cut to these teens who are like busy drinking smoking having sex One of them gets fully nude and yet they're still doing these baby games like blowing a bottle on a bridge.

Cameron 17:13

Yeah, yeah. Oh yeah.

Matthew 17:31

I just I don't understand like that the it feels like old man writing teens. Yeah Missouri by way of the CW everyone's got a bad haircut and a very stylish hat.

Cameron 17:38

Yeah.

Leonard 17:39

Well it is Missouri.

Cameron 17:46

Ah, yeah.

Leonard 17:49

Ah, so so River doll.

Matthew 17:51

And yeah, exactly Yeah yeah, you know what? exactly especially through that one Angsty boy oh man. Um, but yeah, they it's just it's It's very strange. There's no.

Dave 18:07

Um, they're not even they're not archetypes they're not even caricatures they're not. They're not characters. Yeah.

Leonard 18:10

Oh no, no, they're they're fodder 100% yeah like the old like Nora is literally the only one that you're like okay she might make it to the end.

Matthew 18:12

Yeah, oh no, as soon as you see him like these kids are dead meat like but I didn't.

Leonard 18:28

But she's probably not going to be good because she instigated this entire thing.

Cameron 18:31

Yeah, yeah, yes.

Matthew 18:32

Oh my god.

Dave 18:32

And she has the the dangerous boss haircut.

Leonard 18:39

Ah, ah, ah, and then you pair that at the end with the so this is like my favorite detail of the movie which is the non makeup makeup. Um that all the women get which is hey we were not wearing makeup.

Cameron 18:49

M.

Matthew 18:53

Um, yeah.

Leonard 18:57

But to show that we're not met wearing makeup. We'd look like walking corpses.

Cameron 19:01

Yeah.

Matthew 19:04

Yeah, it's just the the fact that they're teens I don't I don't know it didn't add anything to it at all when um, ah what's bullcut when she shows up for the first time.

Cameron 19:15

And.

Matthew 19:17

But my partner and I were both like staring at the screen like how old is she supposed to be because she could be she's playing 14 but she's she looks like 25 I don't know how old this person is and it it honestly just the fact that there were teens and in school I think was just.

Cameron 19:27

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 19:36

Just a weird. Yeah it it made it you right? It made it too much bye by man or slender man or whatever else. Um.

Leonard 19:42

Is is.

Dave 19:44

Um, and so my thought when you brought that up is I'm trying to now in light of what's going on with the weird cult is she a teenager and is that her mother I'm thinking. No.

Matthew 19:53

Um I don't think so no, no I No absolutely not her mom Yeah, everybody's acting here.

Leonard 19:57

Ah, yeah.

Cameron 19:59

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 20:02

Yeah, and I think maybe she's planted into like make sacrifices for no reason like that the deaths of the teens happens. It doesn't do anything.

Matthew 20:11

And.

Cameron 20:14

Do anything? yeah.

Leonard 20:15

No.

Matthew 20:16

No, it spurs him it like makes him like oh I got to find this kid it like everything is everything is to motivate him. But right.

Dave 20:20

I Guess but he was already looking for her sort of but he's already on the he's already on the trail. He's already doing something didn't need the body count to like make him go faster I don't.

Leonard 20:24

Um, yeah, right.

Cameron 20:27

Um.

Matthew 20:34

Ah, you could You couldn't tell by the constant flashbacks to his dead kid that maybe dead kids affect him like.

Dave 20:41

Um, they I mean they do and what's what's better than 4 in a row.

Leonard 20:42

Well debt.

Cameron 20:45

Yeah, so.

Matthew 20:45

I Know right? Oh so stupid? Yeah, but yeah as to where they learn about the.

Leonard 20:48

5 in a row technically speaking. Yeah I know.

Dave 20:49

Well yeah, but I mean there was literally four in a row and then.

Cameron 20:51

The.

Matthew 21:04

I mean I guess it's it's a 500 year old thing. They've been doing it for a while call this guy tooing their little panpipes and bottles and whatever they got not enough panpipe based kryptids.

Dave 21:05

Friendly girl.

Cameron 21:08

Yeah, yeah, so.

Dave 21:15

Um, yeah and I don't know that like so the whole there there should have been more other than the great God Pan who's I guess not really acrypted, but um so we have the kids and their whole. The whole thing is.

Matthew 21:22

Right.

Cameron 21:23

And.

Dave 21:31

You go to a bridge in this case, it's a specific the chain bridge. Um at midnight which is actually a real bridge in North St Louis but um yeah it's like the the change bridge I think so like that um, but you go there.

Matthew 21:40

Um, it had a cool name too. Yeah.

Dave 21:50

At Midnight or some late time think it mattered if it was midnight but you go there and then you blow on a bottle like ah, a tone and it summons the empty man and you hear him. And then on the second night because it's a three day curse on the second night you see him and then on the third night ah he's in your thoughts I think now. Yeah yeah, you meet him.

Cameron 22:11

Yes I see him? yeah.

Matthew 22:20

Gets it.

Leonard 22:21

I Thought you meet him.

Cameron 22:22

It's you feel him meet him or you feel him? yeah.

Dave 22:27

And then you see him on the third one maybe there's a order to it. It didn't matter because it made no does matter.

Leonard 22:28

Yeah, it because it because it it's all bullshit because it's all bullshit.

Matthew 22:28

Um, yeah.

Cameron 22:28

Yeah.

Matthew 22:35

Yeah, having the day count felt like they wanted to add like ring or whatever like 1 of those other ah like time-based monsters once once. Once it perceives you you only have a certain amount of time until you're dead.

Leonard 22:52

Oh it's it it it it does feel very ringo, especially with that opening which is really once again that opening is really legitimately fantastic and like get too excited for the rest of the film.

Matthew 22:55

Yeah.

Cameron 23:03

I.

Matthew 23:05

Yeah, great tells you how many days how many days to the moon crashes to the earth and plays big Han Zimmer horns and yeah

Leonard 23:08

And then the rest of the film happens.

Cameron 23:08

So yeah.

Dave 23:09

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, well you get that they wanted to do threes and then we'll do day one 2 3 and then we'll show again day 1 2 3 and then the final one 2 3 um and it it's fine. It doesn't.

Leonard 23:17

Um, is.

Matthew 23:25

Ah.

Dave 23:34

Add anything to the movie I don't think and it's not necessary and it also doesn't track with the the so um, the lore in this isn't consistent like the things that are happening were were shown in the beginning.

Cameron 23:34

So.

Leonard 23:48

Um.

Dave 23:53

Like this is how stuff looks like it should pan out and then it doesn't really follow that like that's not a through line for the rest of the movie which is disappointing because in the in the opening.

Matthew 24:00

Are.

Cameron 24:05

Yeah.

Matthew 24:06

Yeah.

Dave 24:11

We have um, it's a ah ah I want to say it's not trio. It's 4 people. What's it. What's a 4 people. Yeah a quattro where I don't know what that's called it.

Matthew 24:17

Is for people Ruthie yeah who are in the himalayas in skinny jeans and like cute little winky face like Mittens that you would.

Leonard 24:18

Yeah, it's Greg Fiona Ruthie and Paul.

Dave 24:28

E yeah, you don't if you don't wear that to Bhutan and you.

Matthew 24:32

Like where on a fall day like you're in the himalayas like why are you dressed like this.

Leonard 24:37

They're very accurate for listen very accurate for um, a a quartet of ah whitish people.

Cameron 24:39

No. Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 24:50

Going on an adventure in a foreign kind of country to be perfectly. Honest.

Cameron 24:52

So oh yeah.

Matthew 24:53

Um, yeah, and yeah, Ruthie's the one who toots on the the haunted panpipe then right.

Dave 24:53

Yeah, so.

Cameron 24:58

Button. Yep.

Leonard 24:59

Yes.

Dave 25:01

Yeah, so yeah, with the opening we we show that there is some kind of curse and it's transmitted by touch and by potentially by sound.

Cameron 25:15

Yeah.

Leonard 25:19

Can we can We talk about a really a quick positive which is the empty man corpse in the cave because man that thing is fucking. Great.

Matthew 25:27

Oh yeah, that so cool. Yeah.

Dave 25:28

Oh yes.

Cameron 25:29

Ah, it's man. It's got the same feel as the space Jockey like it's that moment where you just see the petrified thing. You're like oh man yeah because it it feels.

Leonard 25:35

Yes.

Dave 25:36

Um, yeah, with way too many fingers and arms.

Matthew 25:40

So many fingers.

Cameron 25:45

Almost appropriate because it's almost like ah a bodice out Vers Style Buddha like it. It feels like it's in a praying pose. It's got the extra arms arrayid out behind it and then you realize the whole thing except for the skull is made of hands and arms and you're like okay, cool.

Dave 25:47

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 25:48

Yes.

Matthew 25:50

Ah. Yeah, which is really good for like an extra dimensional creature like it's it's fingers are reaching into our reality or whatever it is just it's just an appendage that is reaching out. It is yeah I mean that's symbolism. That's been used all over the place.

Leonard 25:58

Is.

Cameron 26:09

Yeah, yeah, so.

Dave 26:16

Yeah I mean it's ah it's It's a giant antenna.

Cameron 26:16

Yeah.

Matthew 26:18

Um, most recently like an Eldon ring. Yeah yeah, but.

Leonard 26:24

And and one of the things that I ended up thinking about it afterwards which was um, they make a point of saying we didn't have 500 years at the end of the movie I'm like yeah but this thing doesn't look like an human being like.

Cameron 26:41

Vona.

Leonard 26:41

Is this thing like the previous vessel that that a bunch of people just made up and got wrong like imagine like a preschool forming a human being and you get the like thought forming a human being and you get this.

Matthew 26:54

So.

Cameron 26:56

Um. This is.

Dave 27:01

10

Leonard 27:01

With's way too many fingers and like he's got spiral legs coming out of his shoulders. Sure why not I'm like maybe maybe this was a tolpa. Maybe maybe that was a big faint like to Ki but ah.

Matthew 27:11

Listen if you want a guy to give you a message you want to be able to type and how do you get to get it got to type better more hands.

Cameron 27:15

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 27:17

This.

Leonard 27:22

Ah, there is no typewriter. There's nothing. There's no way we are the typewriter right? and we are the typewriter we are the book where nothing where everything it's all the exactly.

Matthew 27:22

Yeah, it was books back then needs more hands. We are the carriage we are the bell. Yeah.

Cameron 27:29

M.

Dave 27:32

Yeah, so I I think that this was like an outside our reality being yeah and yes and it it arrived here somehow.

Matthew 27:40

Um, yeah, first manifestation.

Leonard 27:42

Entity. Yes.

Dave 27:50

And was just like broadcasting Willy nilly and it arrived in the middle of nowhere where there's there are people but it's limited and we're already probably receptive to.

Leonard 28:00

Bright.

Dave 28:09

Something outside themselves versus like what we get later with like Urban settings in larger cities.

Cameron 28:17

Yeah.

Leonard 28:19

Ah.

Matthew 28:20

But because we get yeah that that's that's a good point because ah Paul was the guy who who hears the noise it's later shown that he has tried to commit suicide. Um.

Dave 28:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, he he was already a despairing like person.

Leonard 28:24

Yes.

Cameron 28:29

Yes, yes.

Matthew 28:33

Right? So yeah, despair was there but it's that that same trope of having been so close to death gives you extra sensory perception and you know that that that kind of that kind of thing going on too. But yeah despair is probably the better line to draw because they.

Cameron 28:33

So yeah, so.

Dave 28:44

Yeah.

Matthew 28:53

They I mean they underline it themselves later on.

Cameron 28:54

Oh yeah.

Dave 28:58

Yeah, despair and then they were missing fear I think was it the the ingredient that they didn't instill in the previous um tulpa So he so he's not he's just he's a dude that was like.

Leonard 29:01

And yes.

Matthew 29:03

But falling in a mountain hole that that covered fear.

Leonard 29:08

Are right.

Dave 29:15

Instigated I Guess by this the pontif effects institute cult to go there and because he was receptive potentially to that manifestation which turns him into the empty man of the of the title kind of and he's.

Cameron 29:24

And.

Dave 29:35

Ported around to a bunch of different hospitals and things if if the nurse was believable which she could have been.

Cameron 29:37

Yeah.

Leonard 29:46

Ah, in Nurse exposition that seems super above board and totally not in on it.

Dave 29:50

Oh yeah I mean of course.

Cameron 29:51

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 29:54

I was so really disappointed that I she wasn't part of the group that nils at the end because I was just like this lady like seems like she's total. Yeah, she's like oh man I'm going to tell the Topa about everything that's happening.

Matthew 30:03

She's been ready for this.

Cameron 30:08

So yeah, and.

Dave 30:09

I Get to do a cool I get the cool job.

Leonard 30:11

That's been going on like if you imagine this as like a production of like Eldridge influence ah theater kids of the the scam the scam like.

Matthew 30:11

Yeah. Ah, that's this.

Leonard 30:27

There are so many people that are super excited to like read their lines in this film.

Cameron 30:31

So oh yeah, so.

Matthew 30:33

You are this is that that this is why everyone has a bad haircut. They are all they are all like cult theater kids that does that nurse man like she was just like 1 of a parade of terrible haircuts in this film. Ah, but yeah, holy heck.

Leonard 30:37

I.

Cameron 30:39

Yes.

Matthew 30:51

Theater Kids that's perfect. Ah.

Leonard 30:52

Um.

Dave 30:56

Um, yeah I lost the thread of what I was okay so I just that haircut and it it sent me and yeah I know.

Cameron 31:03

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew 31:04

Um, it's It's the new empty man you can't stop thinking about it. It don't don't don't sniip it don't trim. It don't sniff. It don't trim it.

Leonard 31:10

Ah, the empty cut.

Dave 31:12

Oh now it has no meaning soon enough.

Cameron 31:15

It is 50

Matthew 31:19

Sorry sorry Dave.

Leonard 31:19

Ah x.

Dave 31:26

Okay, um, yeah, so we have the first empty man and then they tried to make another they have 20 years and they know that he's he can't be a conduit for a whole lot of time because that amount of power. Just. Wears a person down and so yeah, so they try to make another ah tulpa and this is the one that we see in manifestation. Um, thirteen I think 13 yes.

Matthew 31:43

Yeah, Bake Bakes his noodle.

Leonard 31:56

13 yeah yes.

Matthew 31:57

13 is this the the guts painter. Yeah, that was good.

Cameron 31:57

And yes.

Dave 32:00

So that's the yes and they like they forgot to instill fear in him so he's just fearlessly being freaky. Yeah.

Cameron 32:09

Yes, yeah, yeah.

Matthew 32:10

He's Joyous with it. Yeah, he's just like playing with a bowl of his own viscera and painting ah a mural on the wall with it.

Dave 32:16

Yeah, and all I could think of was like they they saw maringes begotten and then didn't go far enough with it. They they they combined the opening scene of begotten with the chris Cunningham Rubber Johnny

Matthew 32:27

Are.

Leonard 32:27

The suspicious. Yes, absolutely.

Matthew 32:35

Yes, yeah, yes.

Dave 32:36

Video from Afax twin like not even joking like it's it's like shot for shot on some of the little camera footage which I loved I mean I Loved this part. This was great and then they don't do anything with it really.

Cameron 32:37

Um, yeah, yeah.

Leonard 32:44

Yeah, they've got the.

Cameron 32:49

5

Matthew 32:52

I Yeah I think the him discovering the stuff in the cabin was one of the strongest parts of the film. Ah, it's just when it got like real real culty and real scary. Um.

Cameron 32:57

Yeah.

Dave 33:00

Yeah, yeah, it's getting real weird and then they just back off of that and it's like disappointing. Um, but yeah, so because I wanted to discuss that the tulpa stuff because of course we're.

Cameron 33:05

And.

Matthew 33:07

Yeah.

Dave 33:17

We're here for the monsters and the the tulpa is. It's not really a monster but that's what we got, It's ah it's about as good as the doppelgangers that we had. Ah.

Matthew 33:20

Um, ah.

Leonard 33:24

Yeah, is it's a dobbleganger once again, dobbleganger Humuncula fusion. It's ah it's ah artificial being that you know instead of Alchemy you just.

Matthew 33:26

Ah.

Dave 33:32

Um, yeah.

Leonard 33:39

Will thought it into reality and then you make it have a real sad life and then and then you do an advertisement for oval team. No wait wrong movie. Sorry.

Cameron 33:43

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 33:49

Um. This one's like the advertisement for Chef Boy Id instead. Oh where's the beef.

Leonard 33:55

But yes.

Dave 34:04

Yeah, so that's what we get and that's the I had a lot of fun with that this manifestation videos and I wish like he was able to watch more of them. Ah, but they didn't do that.

Cameron 34:10

M.

Leonard 34:12

Yes.

Matthew 34:15

Yeah I would rather have that than cutting back to his wife and his kid driving off a bridge over and over and over and over again. Ah.

Cameron 34:22

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 34:22

Well hey we get a little bit more of that every time.

Leonard 34:23

Yeah.

Matthew 34:27

That's the worst way to do flashbacks if you're going to give a guy trauma let me see it once and then I get to see the weight on him for the rest of the film I hate just like seeing another 2 seconds it just it just feels like padding and this film was long enough. It didn't need to be any longer.

Dave 34:33

Yeah, not it keeps turning to the camera. Yeah.

Cameron 34:41

Oh yeah, so.

Leonard 34:44

A lot of it. A lot of it felt like like considering what he is what James is. It's like oh we need to actually reinforce this so like every time he's asleep. It's like we need to give him more details on like the ah.

Matthew 34:56

Ah.

Leonard 35:02

Death of his family that he didn't see because he was having an extramarital affair with a woman who doesn't know who he is um.

Matthew 35:07

Right? Well the fact that he grew up in San Francisco wasn't enough of a character trait for you. He needed he needed more.

Cameron 35:08

And. So.

Leonard 35:16

Ah, man I Well I did like I I Well I love that that starts showing up at the end I'm like man this is what why? Why is this I'm just I'm just like and it like the that's like the kind of part of it that I like where it's like he starts like.

Cameron 35:20

Fold button.

Dave 35:23

Um I think keep saying that.

Matthew 35:24

Um, yeah I.

Leonard 35:34

Like X X like saying details about his life which aren't clearly aren't real because of the ending but like now he's starting to believe it and like put it out into the world to like manifest it The like there's a.

Cameron 35:37

5

Matthew 35:41

Ah.

Cameron 35:48

Button.

Leonard 35:53

And an interesting idea of so the tulpa is a thing that was created by a group of people James the topa was created by a group of people with false memories false life everything and that he ah. Eventually becomes self actualized and believes it and starts putting that into reality himself and I'm like that's actually a legitimately interesting concept because then he becomes more real because there's a. Point in the movie where he interacts with the police and ah one of the detectives a ah hefty detective that I like to call him is like hey didn't you used to be an undercover cop and I'm like are you a plant.

Matthew 36:36

Ah. You knew way too much about them. Yeah.

Cameron 36:41

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 36:47

Ah, did or did did James Manifest that memory into you I think it would have been more interesting if James belief in his in himself had started to manifest within other people.

Dave 37:02

Yeah, it's like creating creating or and reinforcing his own reality.

Cameron 37:04

Ah, that would have been very cool. Yeah, and yeah, yeah, you could have oh yeah, yeah, yeah, yes.

Matthew 37:05

Yeah, a confirmation bias yeah because at the time I was like what unlike first blush I was like he must have fucked up so bad that everybody knows who he is but then later I'm like oh everybody knows who he is because they have to.

Leonard 37:07

Yes, Yes, exactly.

Cameron 37:22

Yeah, yeah, but that would have been interesting because as the film goes on and he starts figuring it out. You could have had people beginning to forget him and stuff which would have been much more effective than everyone dropping the act in the last fifteen minutes

Matthew 37:23

In order for him to exist.

Leonard 37:24

Right. Yes. Exactly.

Dave 37:40

Yeah, or of his like resolution of himself and reaffirming that like self image had an impact on himself and on others like.

Matthew 37:42

Ah.

Cameron 37:45

And. M.

Matthew 37:58

Ah.

Leonard 37:59

Ah.

Dave 37:59

Like if they had gone with that and then made that his ending was him accepting himself instead of like denying reality would I think would have been a better ending.

Cameron 38:10

Yeah, so.

Leonard 38:10

Right.

Dave 38:15

But also that would have been a little bit more fun and more characterization if he had like by his own ah self-aculate actualization like pulled people into his orbit would have been more fun.

Leonard 38:26

Exactly.

Matthew 38:27

Yeah.

Cameron 38:27

So.

Dave 38:31

But it also would have been either a longer movie or a different movie. Yeah.

Leonard 38:33

A different movie. Yeah, that show.

Matthew 38:35

Ah.

Cameron 38:36

Yeah.

Dave 38:39

We need like the further adventures of of tolpa tolpam. So.

Matthew 38:44

We need the Boom Comics extended Universe I need to see him as part of a dark avengers. It's yeah.

Leonard 38:44

Yeah, yeah.

Cameron 38:45

Topaman. Yeah.

Dave 38:51

Look Okay so his wife his wife died and his child died and then he had to go to Silent hill.

Leonard 38:53

Well, he's he's one of the thunderbolts.

Cameron 38:59

Yeah.

Matthew 38:59

Yeah, pretty much it was snowing when they died. So yeah and it just all oh boy and his name's James god dam it? Yeah right.

Leonard 39:03

Ah, yes, yeah, he did.

Dave 39:06

Um, yeah.

Leonard 39:11

Um, and then and then and then ah and then a and then.

Dave 39:12

Was names less sambra. That's like come on guys. You didn't even give him like you gave him a shitty fake last name like I think that's just the sleeping.

Cameron 39:14

No man to sleep A ah.

Matthew 39:19

If you're going to try to make up a backstory for someone. Yeah columnless sambra. Yeah, it is so what I want to know because he it runs like a securities like and and there's cameras everywhere.

Cameron 39:24

Ah, man. Yeah yeah.

Dave 39:31

Um, yeah.

Leonard 39:31

Um, yes, thank you? ah.

Cameron 39:32

Store. Yeah.

Matthew 39:35

I Kind of want to go back and watch to see if he's even on the security cameras or not.

Cameron 39:39

Oh that'd be fun.

Leonard 39:39

He.

Dave 39:42

Um, well it does remember it like does a weird fritz which at the time I don't I don't think I clocked because I was like that's weird but didn't you know have any context to go that Maybe that's strange so that he's editing himself into it or.

Leonard 39:44

Oh it does? yeah.

Matthew 39:45

Um, yeah, all right. Um, yeah.

Dave 40:00

They're editing it I don't know he's not washing the footage.

Matthew 40:02

Um.

Leonard 40:03

They have to they they have to be editing him into it because um, because man can we talk about the Mexican restaurant real quick and the happy birthday because.

Dave 40:10

Okay, the saddest birthday.

Matthew 40:12

The saddest birthday on earth.

Cameron 40:14

Ah, oh man.

Leonard 40:17

It's writ. Well, it's really sad because I really appreciate that they show how much of an alcoholic he is with his for with his for her ah Coronas and his 2 shots of of tequila with lemons which I'm just like what what is what is.

Matthew 40:22

2 shots in a beer man. Yeah.

Cameron 40:29

Yeah.

Dave 40:32

Yeah, lemons is no.

Leonard 40:37

Going on here but then I I was just like but then I was just like oh I looked at the interior and I was like oh this is a chain restaurant. They don't know any better and then he gives the birthday free he meal birthday coupon which a doesn't cover alcohol ever. So that's up.

Matthew 40:37

That's how you know you're in Missouri my friend. Ah.

Cameron 40:38

I.

Matthew 40:44

Yeah.

Cameron 40:54

Just.

Leonard 40:56

Bullshit Um, but they do um and ah I prefer ah deep fried ice cream. Thank you very much. Ah, but but just like okay wait so that day like.

Matthew 40:57

Um, yeah, the sad flan with the candle in it.

Dave 40:58

Um I think he's wanted the little flon cake.

Matthew 41:05

Now 5

Cameron 41:07

The.

Leonard 41:16

Create a fake identity have somebody go into that restaurant and like give his information for his birthday and then have them send him a free birthday voucher coupon like that's the thing that I.

Cameron 41:30

So yeah, free pre-aged voucher. Yes.

Leonard 41:35

Was constantly thinking it I was yes.

Matthew 41:37

Right? Well no, this is all like she said it was a script So it's as if everyone read the same story about this sad guy eating flawn alone just hammered trying to wave to a kid who does not see him. Um, ah like.

Cameron 41:49

Yeah, so.

Leonard 41:49

Yes, and right.

Matthew 41:54

Maybe the kid wasn't planned for but everything else like should have been just like part of like a very sad you know character backstory that all these people remembered and made made manifest.

Cameron 41:54

Certain.

Leonard 42:01

Right. I That's that but that's like that ultimately ends up being my biggest problem which is like who is like a plant and who is legitimate in this narrative because cool.

Cameron 42:17

So.

Matthew 42:19

Yeah, well according to the religion. Nothing is nothing's real. Everything's real and nothing's real. So it might as well all be fake.

Dave 42:19

There's nobody else legitimate like everybody. There's pontef effects is my read on it. No so yeah, so he's told that his existence. Um.

Leonard 42:25

Wait you yeah exactly it's yes.

Dave 42:34

His hit the beginning of his existence was that birthday at the restaurant. He's on he goes. Okay so the kid like he had to he's there and he's consumed drinks. We didn't if he didn't appear and then there was just like empty.

Leonard 42:36

Yes, yeah.

Matthew 42:39

He's only three days old. Yeah.

Leonard 42:49

Yes.

Cameron 42:49

Button.

Dave 42:54

Drink things. Ah because it it goes so it goes back to the he it it. It re shows his um appearance in the pontef effect institute So when he snuck in.

Leonard 43:10

Yes.

Matthew 43:12

Ah.

Dave 43:13

He went to the back rooms and then saw like the weird little they're doing little circle in the warehouse and they're calling and he's just in the darkness and then he's thinking something else is appearing like the empty man but that's him like that's when he was.

Cameron 43:26

And yeah.

Leonard 43:26

Yes, you right summoned? yeah.

Matthew 43:28

Um, right.

Cameron 43:31

Yeah.

Dave 43:32

Summoned. Yeah, so he's summoned there and then just like he's like but naked in the little chair and they do whatever and then let him wander the city to go to the restaurant.

Cameron 43:43

Click.

Matthew 43:49

Right.

Leonard 43:49

No, they know they that well because the first time we see him he's running down the street. Oh yeah, he let you? Yeah, he's yeah, he's jogging and smoking that is the first time that we see him so we are meant to believe that he woke up in his bed.

Cameron 43:50

I.

Dave 43:51

Yes.

Matthew 43:54

Smoking running and smoking.

Cameron 43:56

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 44:08

A fully formed individual with like I Guess the the idea is that that the trauma of his wife and son's death allowed him to become a fully formed individual. Um.

Cameron 44:08

A routine. Um.

Leonard 44:25

And then like proceed through life as an actual human being but he right? but he also has a business which mean like an a storefront like it'd be different if he was running it out of his home which I'm sure would be illegal.

Matthew 44:26

Yeah, he is framed his existence around that. Yeah.

Cameron 44:41

Well.

Leonard 44:44

Maybe not in Missouri but he has a storefront. He has a car. Yeah, there's so much like there's so much work that had to be.

Dave 44:51

Um, they just own the city. They've run the city.

Matthew 44:54

Yeah, they do run the city but like if they can will a being into existence. Ah, how hard is it like a Honda Civic like you know like you can just like pop one of those out in an afternoon like.

Dave 45:03

Um, that's not even alive I mean.

Leonard 45:07

Um, man man I will this SuV man just just hey hey forget your your weird empty god and just manifest like all the gold that you want.

Matthew 45:17

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 45:17

But that's meaningless. It's all meaningless. They only want the conduit to get the messages from their God which we don't know what what that is.

Leonard 45:22

Yes, it's all meaningless. Everything's oh my the.

Cameron 45:30

And.

Leonard 45:30

Yes, like the ultimate Nile is cult of like everything is meaningless unless we exert all of this energy to create a sad Lonely widower.

Matthew 45:32

Right.

Leonard 45:46

So we can place our God inside of them and I'm just like man this this live action remake of hallow night is really depressing.

Matthew 45:54

But we also don't know like if his if his existence was ever a physical thing before he like literally is born from Paul's head in the hospital like Paul's head explodes like Zeus and he emerges like Athena.

Cameron 45:57

Um. Um, yeah.

Leonard 46:10

Um, right Zeus.

Matthew 46:14

And everyone kneels and is like here's the new god you know we that could be his first physical manifestation like and everything else could just be the story that everyone collectively imagined. It's like you guys ever see sphere remember that? Yeah and.

Cameron 46:19

Who was.

Leonard 46:20

Great.

Dave 46:28

Yeah.

Leonard 46:28

Yes, yes.

Matthew 46:32

You know it's like that. It's just you don't know where the things began and ended and yeah.

Leonard 46:36

Yeah, jamess James Iss Queen Latifa murdered by jellyfish.

Matthew 46:44

Jellyfish Exactly man.

Dave 46:48

Yeah, it does make it difficult when anytime we're seeing his point of view. It's it's unreliable. Um, and then he's flashing back to other stuff that we are have already seen but it's not recontextualizing all of it. It's just showing it again.

Leonard 46:53

Yes.

Matthew 46:55

Um. Um, yeah, yeah.

Leonard 47:03

Right.

Dave 47:05

And then it's a little bit weirder and you're like okay, but wait did that happen or did the first thing happen or did none of it. Um I don't know it's all meaningless. There's not it's it's not a strong through line in that regard.

Cameron 47:14

Yeah.

Matthew 47:15

Yeah, and the 1 weird part. Yeah, the 1 weird part where like the cat almost gets out of the bag is when Steven Root who is like the preacher at the center for the Pontifex Institute um

Cameron 47:30

So.

Matthew 47:33

He says it's good to see you again because up. Yeah, that's where he was summoned and the fact that the dude who is in charge would like let the veil slip just a little bit.

Cameron 47:34

Yes, yes.

Dave 47:34

Yeah, because he he appeared That's where he was summoned.

Leonard 47:34

Yes, right.

Dave 47:47

Um, yeah, well hope we hope you'll stay longer this time but you guys sent him out I don't understand it doesn't make any sense.

Leonard 47:51

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew 47:51

Yeah, yeah, ah yeah, um, why he would want would want him to break in question there I just I don't get that little detail. But.

Dave 48:02

Yeah, no, you don't want him to question his his existence because I could unravel him.

Matthew 48:07

Yeah, and they obviously only had Stephen Root for a day because it's 1 extremely good scene and then he's gone just say he he he might as well be a tulpa. He's just gone the people just forget about him and there he goes.

Cameron 48:10

Um, yes, yeah.

Leonard 48:11

I.

Dave 48:17

Mela.

Cameron 48:21

So yeah.

Leonard 48:23

Oh man wouldn't that be ah man what if everybody was just a tolpa in this film like and the it's topas making topas. It's it's yes.

Cameron 48:29

Oh man.

Dave 48:30

The self the self actualization circle I will set something else there actually um you you well we'vescribed? you've ascribed meaning to something.

Matthew 48:32

Shaking my damn head I mean that's kind of what it's It's about is like we only exist because we we think we perceive and. Um, yeah, right.

Dave 48:48

Um, that doesn't inherently have any and just because it has a meaning you can undo that by um, thinking about it too hard.

Matthew 48:57

Right? It's like Descartes but too much. It's I think therefore you are it's yeah what the.

Leonard 49:00

I.

Dave 49:10

Yeah, well and they're they're doing a lot of um so the kids go to Jacques did it high school that you know as we know the famous philosopher that has a high school named after him in Missouri.

Matthew 49:18

Ah.

Leonard 49:20

Now how in Missouri in Missouri.

Cameron 49:22

Yeah, and Missouri since.

Matthew 49:25

Yeah, ah you guys didn't go to for your dick Nietsche high school like like I did no oh wow.

Dave 49:27

No no I went to full cold.

Leonard 49:33

I Went to the staring abyss high school. Thank you very much.

Matthew 49:37

All right? Yeah, go fighting nothings.

Cameron 49:40

And.

Leonard 49:45

Gigs apple.

Dave 49:48

Yeah, well um, did it is entire thing is on all that with a bunch of it is on deconstruction. So that's what they're doing with James is they've they've.

Cameron 49:56

So.

Matthew 49:58

Um.

Cameron 50:01

Yeah.

Dave 50:04

Constructed a man and then they're having to also deconstruct him to get him to like not fully like enough to break back down the barriers to make him doubt.

Cameron 50:07

Yeah, yeah. And.

Dave 50:18

Some things but not everything. It's real weird like we is like we need you? Yeah, we need you to like empty yourself. Yeah, we we had to create a body.

Matthew 50:19

Yeah, that they need a vessel but they don't want a psyche and yeah, so yeah, well can you just achieve nirvana real quick real quick.

Cameron 50:19

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leonard 50:28

Yeah, like literally like yeah, be be willing to empty yourself.

Cameron 50:28

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 51:03

Did I lose you guys? No I didn't say anything. Oh no.

Dave 51:07

Oh no I thought you were saying you needed a break now. Okay, but ah.

Cameron 51:08

Ah, ah, ah, the perfect misunderstanding.

Leonard 51:14

Um, ah. Ah, we were all very respectful for the antem break that we thought that we hear I I was about to say something but I was like I hope somebody's still on the call I hope I didn't lose a connection because.

Matthew 51:19

Wow! All right? Yeah sorry man.

Cameron 51:28

Ah see see. Ah. Yeah, yeah, we all drop simultaneously.

Dave 51:32

A.

Matthew 51:32

I Was like what happened there? Well we achieved nothing this everybody we did it? Wow Listen yeah.

Leonard 51:37

Because yeah, exactly oh man, a man we just manifested some. We just manifested some guy on a termpi and he's gonna have a really rough time.

Dave 51:42

That's just we all turn to stare at you. Oh no is it have a bad time.

Cameron 51:45

Um, yeah.

Matthew 51:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah, the way he says he's from San Francisco yeah the way he says he's from San Francisco is like the very specific way.

Cameron 51:53

It's okay, he's from San Francisco you think he's never been on a turnpike before.

Leonard 51:54

Get expect with.

Dave 51:55

I Don't know I think anybody that we could conjure up is not going to be great.

Leonard 52:02

Um.

Matthew 52:08

Ah I don't know if you've ever met someone who's very conservative who has moved out of a like a liberal area who is just like oh yeah, I'm used to this shit I'm from here and they he says it with such derision I'm just like Wow are all right man. Okay.

Leonard 52:17

Oh yeah.

Cameron 52:18

Ah, okay.

Leonard 52:23

I I actually read it like he was like I I get all of this wouie nonsense that you're trying to like foist onto people because I'm from San Francisco I guess it's like. I guess it's like

Cameron 52:30

Yeah.

Dave 52:32

Oh no, he's like he's legitimately upset with like cults.

Matthew 52:33

Um, yeah I'm over it. Yeah.

Cameron 52:38

But yeah.

Leonard 52:40

Yeah I guess it's like kind of the same but like because ah because this is all wooy because it literally is all Wouy nonsense man that um that that um, online test personality test in written page form.

Matthew 52:55

Ah, love it.

Cameron 52:57

Yeah, ah it was great.

Leonard 52:58

Like I pause like 5 times during that sequence because I was just like I can't I can't deal with this stupid nonsense. It's so dumb I was so angry again. Yes.

Dave 53:06

Um, I mean James couldn't deal with it either.

Matthew 53:07

Yeah, it's so close to scientology and like when they do that big shot of the hospital that looks like the scientology building I was like okay somebody knows what they're doing.

Cameron 53:15

Yeah, by Leonard don't you agree that the scientific method is stifling and prevents learning.

Leonard 53:18

Yep. Oh yeah, that's ah absolutely what I believe Yeah, as as as somebody with a a brain disorder that that loves logic I Absolutely believe that.

Matthew 53:25

Yeah, yeah.

Cameron 53:35

We.

Matthew 53:40

Um.

Cameron 53:41

Ah, so.

Dave 53:43

Oh goodness. Yeah, so yeah, that's the the tulpaness I guess of James and the tulpening he was tulpat real hard.

Cameron 53:45

All these. The topening. Poor guy. Yeah, the whole the whole movie is him having a terrible time and then it all gets worse which is the point.

Dave 54:00

He had a bad time and like eat. Yeah.

Leonard 54:06

Right? And no, it's him having a terrible time and then some and then his neighbor telling him. Yeah, that was the point in joy.

Matthew 54:06

Um, yeah.

Cameron 54:16

Have fun. Yeah.

Dave 54:19

Um, yeah, so my other it's real weird. Um, it feels like ah you wanted to call it Nora. It's not Nora. It's the daughter Amanda yeah Amanda so.

Cameron 54:31

Amanda.

Matthew 54:32

Amanda just been collar bull cut.

Leonard 54:33

Amanda.

Dave 54:37

She feels like the Pontifex's boss. It's real weird.

Cameron 54:40

No oh yeah, she's definitely in charge and she's for sure in charge.

Leonard 54:40

Yes.

Matthew 54:41

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 54:47

She's she's in charge eighteen going on 35

Leonard 54:47

It's she's like she feels like a higher up. Um, and I who who I'm I'm sorry who ah questioned whether or not she was actually 18 was that you met.

Cameron 54:50

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 54:52

Um, ah. Yeah, because like the first scene you see her is like who is this and how old is she? yeah.

Cameron 55:01

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 55:04

Yeah, well and also what the fuck is she wearing because it's literally like she fell down a laundry shoot and put on what she she.

Cameron 55:09

Yeah, yeah, just wearing like half of a black swan outfit.

Matthew 55:16

Um, yes.

Leonard 55:19

She's she's literally she's literally dressed like every single character from every C season from sex and the city in that opening shot and I'm like what is going on. Um.

Cameron 55:26

Yeah, yeah, yeah, oh.

Leonard 55:32

But yeah, she's like the boss because she's she she's like the first to interact with him like literally right after he was born if were ah you know to believe that he's only been around for three days and she like you know does a bunch of wooey nonsense.

Cameron 55:35

But. So.

Leonard 55:51

Like oh you know pain and suffering is only real if you believe it. But and I'm just like why are you even saying this because you need him to feel that in order to become like the perfect I'm just like what? what.

Matthew 55:56

Ah. She she Also yeah Cultie speak and then she does something very specific to test if he has ah like independent thought or sapiens or sentience.

Dave 56:01

Um, well she was doing more culty speak than the pontefex.

Leonard 56:05

Yes.

Matthew 56:17

She asks if it's okay to tell someone else about his existence and he gives her permission and it's just it's it. Okay that I told my if I tell my mom that I saw you and it comes off as that. But it's permission to hey are you a.

Leonard 56:22

Um, ah right right.

Matthew 56:35

Are you just a manifestation of my own imagination or are you extant enough to give me an answer you know to confirm your existence.

Leonard 56:43

That's really good. Let's see that's see that's the stuff that I Really really like that's the stuff that really work works.

Matthew 56:47

Yeah, and.

Dave 56:54

It's like the okay the one point and then the little kid waving in the they're not waving but he was waving the kid was just like not having it in the diner he he wasn't He wasn't quite real enough for that child.

Matthew 57:01

Are.

Leonard 57:01

No is like oh he's not fully formed yet. Yeah.

Matthew 57:06

Yeah, a kid's like he's's doing tequila with lemons was wrong with this guy. Yeah.

Dave 57:11

Yeah, you can't be real.

Leonard 57:14

I won I want I wanted I wanted there to be a flashback to that kid's pov and it's just um, nothing drinking a bunch of Coronas and doing those or maybe like.

Dave 57:27

It's a bit. It's a vague think shape like and ah.

Matthew 57:29

Ah know it's the empty man and there's like 8 beers because they're all in his hands like all 8 hands.

Leonard 57:35

Ah.

Dave 57:36

Um, I was thinking of the ah the static E Pulse figures.

Matthew 57:41

Yeah.

Leonard 57:44

I I was I was going to revise it to like ah a child's illustration of what an adult looks like like the squiggly but drinking a bunch of beers and doing tequila shots.

Dave 57:57

Good good thing is like yeah if it was a kid designing him. He would have had that weird round mouth with like all the teeth pointing inward. Those are the worst.

Matthew 58:04

Are.

Leonard 58:06

Yep. I agree Dave Kids are the worst.

Cameron 58:14

Ccc.

Dave 58:16

Yeah, Topa James okay so yeah, that's that's the movie I mean there's there's little bits that happen but they they just.

Cameron 58:24

Yeah, yeah, yeah I like yeah.

Leonard 58:26

Yeah.

Matthew 58:29

Yeah, there's a haunted Teddy bear at one point which is kind of fun. Um.

Leonard 58:31

I would I would actually recommend the movie like if if anything that we said in in this discussion has sparked your interest I Would really recommend it because once again it is gorgeously shot. It's well acted. We just.

Cameron 58:36

Button.

Leonard 58:50

I Think that we all just have issues with the resolution of the plot. But I do think that at the end of the day. It is absolutely worth your time.

Cameron 58:53

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 58:54

Yeah, and honestly, if I knew going in what the twist was looking for those little clues I think would be a lot of fun.

Cameron 58:58

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leonard 59:08

Hey guess what it was a lot of fun and then it made me angry because I was just like a lot of this doesn't make any sense because of what the twist is.

Matthew 59:15

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Cameron 59:16

Yeah Nah no.

Dave 59:17

Yeah, there's not enough like they don't do enough with the clues. There's a couple and they're weird. But then it because everything else is acting in favor of trying to make him believe you know he's he's he's needing to be Truman showed. Um.

Matthew 59:22

Um, yeah.

Cameron 59:30

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 59:31

Yes.

Matthew 59:33

Ah.

Dave 59:34

Then it just takes you out of it a little bit. Yeah.

Cameron 59:35

Yeah, but yeah, no I like it I think as as a sort of a tangential Kothulu Mythos movie. It's fun because it is explicitly about like and ya latherur technically. But yeah.

Matthew 59:36

Now.

Leonard 59:44

Yes.

Matthew 59:49

Yeah, to be fair. Yeah.

Leonard 59:52

Um.

Cameron 59:53

Which which is the bit I Really loved actually is um near the end when he's in the tunnels and it comes through the wall as the Skeleton and it forms the hood. It just turns into that hooded figure. But there's a moment where the hood cycles up into that conical head shape which is sort of the classic the classic Nyal latheap art and I was like.

Matthew 1:00:05

Ah. Yeah.

Cameron 1:00:13

It's the guy and then it turned then it turned into a skeleton in a dressing gown. Ah yeah, yeah, yeah, was great. It's got its moments. It's worth a watch.

Leonard 1:00:13

Yeah.

Matthew 1:00:18

Yeah, had like a tentacle coming out of its head like a finger probosses coming out of its mouth that was really cool. Um, yeah could could.

Cameron 1:00:31

It's just not incredible. Oh yeah, yeah, so.

Matthew 1:00:33

Could have used more monsters like 30% more monster. Yeah two good shots but that I think I think the the scene I really liked that I thought could have been a little better at the end was when he's at the camp.

Dave 1:00:34

We got yeah 2 kind of.

Cameron 1:00:38

In the sort of. So.

Leonard 1:00:48

Yes.

Matthew 1:00:49

And they're they're doing the dancer on the fire and they're like summoning obviously some cosmic thing and then they do what the monster did at the very beginning of the movie is he takes a step. They take a step. He takes a step and they're all doing it in Lockstep and there's like a hundred people. Um.

Cameron 1:00:53

Yeah, yeah. It was very funny. Yeah.

Matthew 1:01:09

And now just like oh oh no I know where this goes.

Leonard 1:01:12

Um, I Also really appreciate his reaction of like oh no and then take off.

Matthew 1:01:17

Yeah, and then on the way out, He's just in the car and out loud. He just goes what the fuck was that yeah it was very good.

Cameron 1:01:18

Like this actually. The most human reaction in the entire film.

Leonard 1:01:27

Yeah, like like literally like literally the most logical reaction to any love craft adjacent nonsense that I've ever seen in any piece of media.

Cameron 1:01:39

Yeah.

Dave 1:01:39

It was it was it was an acceptable reaction this one time because it it didn't like that felt natural versus sometimes it does not sound that way with. We don't want well that just happened it's like don't do that James.

Matthew 1:01:41

Ah. Yeah.

Leonard 1:01:44

Yeah, exactly. No yeah.

Matthew 1:01:51

Yeah, yeah, there there are some aesthetics I think that this film nails um the communication through clicking which is like done through him tapping his pen or his flashbacks of his kid.

Dave 1:02:05

With the teeth.

Leonard 1:02:05

Yes.

Matthew 1:02:09

Oh man coins on teeth ah dental trauma. Um and ah ah, and then like when people start saying empty over and over or that that mantra of the the bridge the man the block and then it becomes sort of a a predator esque clicking. Um.

Cameron 1:02:09

The yeah. Yeah.

Leonard 1:02:25

Yes.

Matthew 1:02:28

And then there's like a room full of people just predator clicking at a poster that ah, that's so good and so creepy in like that one scene where he gets in the back of the compound and there's just like people sitting around a poster listening to or recording that that was so good.

Cameron 1:02:30

So yeah, that's good.

Leonard 1:02:41

And oh yeah, I Really I liked I liked the concept of it but like I got really angry at the actual text which was well this isn't real. But if it is.

Cameron 1:02:45

M.

Matthew 1:02:45

Ah, so good. Um.

Leonard 1:03:00

Than this and I'm just like stop moving these goalposts because you're making me real angry with like your philosophy like you need like you and I get it because like nothing is static. Everything is what.

Cameron 1:03:06

Um.

Leonard 1:03:18

Um, nothing's forbidden. Everything's permitted I get it I get I played a saxon's creed and so like but the idea of like your philosophy being being like this doesn't happen.

Cameron 1:03:18

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Matthew 1:03:18

I.

Leonard 1:03:33

But if it does then it means this that also doesn't happen and I'm just like my brain is literally incapable of dealing with your bullshit so you need to stop.

Matthew 1:03:34

Right. I'd like it was kind of a marrying of the lovecraft esque I know it's so I overuse that but like the 2 observe something gives it the ability to observe you.

Leonard 1:03:58

So yes.

Matthew 1:04:00

But also with like the heisenberg uncertainty principle of by observing something you are fundamentally changing it so it it kind of it kind of wants to marry those 2 things without really talking about either. And yeah I think that's why like this just concept was interesting.

Leonard 1:04:06

Um, yes, yeah, that's.

Cameron 1:04:06

In.

Leonard 1:04:15

Um, yeah, no I actually agree and and didn't even think of it that way and that's actually pretty awesome.

Cameron 1:04:16

Yeah.

Matthew 1:04:24

Yeah, that's why these conversations are fun. Somebody should do a podcast like this.

Cameron 1:04:26

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 1:04:30

I know.

Leonard 1:04:33

I Know a bunch of people should do a podcast where they actually have fun talking about the media that they engage with. Ah.

Matthew 1:04:38

And so.

Cameron 1:04:39

Oh poor. Well that ain't this Oh God Please a.

Matthew 1:04:43

No sorry we're doing the bye bye man next week just for that.

Dave 1:04:49

And no Bye Bye man. Okay, so yeah, that's the movie will will pivot to the comic book. So the the comic.

Leonard 1:04:50

Ah god. Yes.

Cameron 1:05:02

And.

Matthew 1:05:05

Um, so.

Dave 1:05:09

At least the first graphic novel because on the first issue. It's first like 8 issues I believe um, where did my minutes go here. We go. Ah yeah, so this is dealing with um, a.

Cameron 1:05:12

Yeah.

Dave 1:05:26

Psychological contagion that is spreading across the world and through proximity and exposure to like the idea of it you you can catch it.

Cameron 1:05:30

And.

Dave 1:05:46

And it makes the the recipient um homicidal ah inflicting self-harm. It's very graphic in that regard. Um that this is 1 thing that the movie didn't kind of steered away from and.

Cameron 1:05:52

Button. Yeah.

Dave 1:06:05

I was kind of disappointed like read first to go. Okay I I have idea of what they're going to do with this movie and then they just they didn't do that? Um, but it it centers on um, two detectives.

Cameron 1:06:08

Yeah, yeah.

Dave 1:06:24

There's a Fbi agent Jensen and then a Cdc agent Walter Langford and it's a joint operation between the Cdc because of the the contagious nature of this disease. Um, and the fact that there's um.

Cameron 1:06:35

Yeah.

Dave 1:06:44

Terrorism involved. So the Fbi is kind of stepping in ah because they don't know how this is being spread but there's cult activity that is like instigating pockets of this contagion and so these 2 detectives are. Ah, they're they're they're tracking down people. Um that are exhibiting specific signs because there's like degrees of being like infected by this where some people um immediately.

Cameron 1:07:17

Yeah, and.

Dave 1:07:22

Kill themselves or others and then other people start exhibiting those symptoms but then don't like fully carry it out or are kind of stopped in the middle of doing that so they're they're a little more lucid or you're able to talk to them before something happens. Um, so.

Cameron 1:07:37

E.

Dave 1:07:42

They're tracking people down and they they happen upon a family where the the husband and the husband ah was sick and then he he killed himself and his wife but the kids are missing like they can't find the children.

Cameron 1:07:57

So.

Dave 1:08:01

Um, but what they do find is a um human skin mural like on ah on the bedroom wall. It's like hung up like a coat. Ah and they can't find the kids um eventually.

Leonard 1:08:09

Always fun.

Cameron 1:08:11

So.

Dave 1:08:19

They realize that that big skin Tarp is ah a doorway like they can open it and the kids just have it up against the wall and then when they open it like the kids come out of it. Like it was it like it was a flappy door and the kids end up saying that they they were in um, another place and they were talking to the empty man and the empty man is what is spreading. Um this this contagion. It's it's. It's his way of transmitting his message and they're here to like facilitate that they're like now his um so spokespersons. Yeah,, That's what I want I spoke to people so they're his. They're his envoys Yeah suppose he will yeah.

Cameron 1:08:56

Yeah.

Leonard 1:09:04

Ah, envoys.

Cameron 1:09:04

E.

Matthew 1:09:10

Spokes that I like Spokes Evil that's pretty good.

Cameron 1:09:12

B D no.

Leonard 1:09:14

Hype Men M cs.

Dave 1:09:14

Yeah, they are. They're they're hyping and up. Well I mean the thing is they're on they they're on National television. They get you know? Yeah, they're yeah.

Matthew 1:09:15

Ah, Brand Ambassadors drop. Ah yeah, they're just influencers you know content creators.

Leonard 1:09:23

No yeah, no actually actual brand ambassadors. Ah ah, hey listen as a content creator I will not have you besmirch the term. Thank you very much.

Dave 1:09:33

Ah, no, Ah, yeah, So anyway, um, they they get the kids and they're they're trying to trace like where. And came from like what's going on behind that and it all kind of traces back to um, a a young woman and her brother. Um, her brother has been like sick his whole life and he I think he's. Goes in and out of Comas or he's comatose and just she wants to try to fix him so she takes him to a like faith Healer church and the the pastor there um like.

Cameron 1:10:09

And.

Dave 1:10:23

Lays hands on the brother and it links him because the brother ends up being like the empty man conduit So he's the key's like the comatose guy that they put into the movie. Basically um.

Cameron 1:10:32

Okay, okay. Button.

Dave 1:10:43

But in this the ah when the the pastor like touches him he he becomes like a sort of other receptacle and then hits his mission to like he he sorts just I think he starts forming the weird little cult. Um. To spread more of the message of the empty man and it turns out that the the comatose brother. Um, he's on. He's like half dead because he's he's brain dead but his mind just.

Cameron 1:11:10

Um.

Dave 1:11:19

Went elsewhere to another dimension and for him. It's like a beautiful heaven and he sees only all of this just it's Peaceful. There's only unity around and he wants to so. Let other people know that that's what's waiting for them like everyone can achieve this so he's sending that kind of vibe out into the world. Um, but it's like snapping everyone's brains and it turns out that he's kind of in a hell.

Cameron 1:11:44

Me.

Leonard 1:11:47

Oh okay.

Dave 1:11:57

And he's envisioning in in 1 web anyone else that sees it just sees like planes made of flesh and writhing buildings and just terrible terrible things and weird demon creatures. Um and that makes them. Go mad.

Leonard 1:12:16

Oh so it's literally the line that Vincent says to Heather in Silent Hill three which is they look like monsters to you.

Cameron 1:12:24

Smooth.

Matthew 1:12:25

Um, yeah, yeah.

Dave 1:12:25

Um, yeah, it's that vibe and then it's kind of ah in the mouth of madness.

Cameron 1:12:31

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Leonard 1:12:31

Oh okay, oh yeah, right, right? The spreading corruption thing that I Absolutely love.

Matthew 1:12:33

Yeah.

Dave 1:12:36

Um, yeah, he he's the settter Kane kind of figure. Yeah.

Leonard 1:12:41

Because because it's a a mimetic virus like ah, it's ah it's like yeah, it's a concept conceptual virus that people spread to one another.

Dave 1:12:49

Yeah, and that's um, something in the green room I brought up was um, the the empty man the idea of it and then the spreading of it is like the film pontiful where it's ah it's moment mimetic and the the movie itself kind of plays with that where the um the pontef effects.

Leonard 1:12:57

Yes.

Dave 1:13:06

Ah institutes like yes if you say something like you may know So what? what an idea is. But if you like repeat it often enough it becomes gibberish. So like what's the what's the real meaning is it the gibberish or is it The thing that we ascribed to it. Um.

Cameron 1:13:13

Talk.

Leonard 1:13:19

And I'm just like it's the thing that we ascribe to it because that's what allows us to function as human beings and a society. He's him like like I'm just like why you? Why are you advocating for the frenzy flame.

Dave 1:13:25

That Yes, that's how we've That's how we can you know conveyed and transferred knowledge that you said we can't do.

Matthew 1:13:25

Um, yeah, yeah.

Cameron 1:13:29

For instance.

Matthew 1:13:39

Everything's arbitrary. We had to make sense of something otherwise like nothing would exist. Yeah.

Leonard 1:13:39

My dude yeah I'm just like yeah guess what? Mike yeah, we name cats cats and you know that's just artifice but like that's what I call my cats like I call my cat. Like I call one my cats Beebe and I call one of my other cats a dante from the devil may cry series just so I have a basis of like reality because that's the only thing that keeps us from devolving into bedlam.

Cameron 1:14:07

Um.

Dave 1:14:18

Um, as we see what happens in this comic. Ah yeah, so um, the agents realize ah who that who the.

Cameron 1:14:18

Yeah, exactly.

Leonard 1:14:21

Ah.

Dave 1:14:33

Comutose guy is and they need to turn off like the transmission and the body isn't going to do it because they need to stop it at the source because if they don't stop the source. It could just find another way to transmit. So.

Cameron 1:14:43

And.

Dave 1:14:50

And that's when they I think they got the kids back earlier actually um, no yeah when they when they put the body door up on the wall. Um the the Cdc doctor he's like. If the kids came out of somewhere and they said that they just met the empty man then like we can go there. So the doctor is like just drives a gun and he's like I'll just go finish this my way and it goes through the door. Yeah, no, it's it's that it's literally that.

Matthew 1:15:20

Moon Moons haunted. Ah.

Dave 1:15:26

It's very good and that's that's where the first volume ends is him going through that doorway and then it's just you don't that's what you get.

Matthew 1:15:30

Stab.

Cameron 1:15:33

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 1:15:35

can can I just like add a little bit of context to this. Why I think the Cdc being involved with this empty men pandemic is really hilarious ah to me. Um. It's because ah, I'm old enough to remember a dreamcast game called the ring terrors realm that was based on the ringoo series. Ah, where ah the Cdc has Sataco's ah comatose body in its basement and also features a weird virtual reality ring game that is actually the real world. So the Cdc's involvement with like a weird vaguely japanese like haunting.

Nightmare Scenario is very bizarre to me for this comic.

Dave 1:16:34

Yeah, it's It's a um, the comic is always very visceral like they that it's It's a hard R like they're not playing around and I don't remember what them but they.

Leonard 1:16:44

Ah.

Cameron 1:16:44

So.

Leonard 1:16:46

Oh it's not an NCSeventeen because that's what I'd expect from a comment.

Matthew 1:16:52

But first not.

Dave 1:16:53

Actually rated it I don't know I'm just saying like that. That's what it turned out to be. Um, yeah, it was just mostly a lot of violence. Ah yeah, that's that's where it ends and that would have been what informed the creator who I believe worked directly with the um.

Leonard 1:16:59

Ah.

Dave 1:17:12

Film production team I think he didn't ah yeah, it's yes, it's like another tale in this world sort of or.

Matthew 1:17:15

Yeah, so it's not like an adaptation but it's like it. It's ah, an extension of ideas. Yeah. Are.

Dave 1:17:30

Because I can't say you refine the idea and like did something different with it. It's not quite a one to one but it it's it's taking aspects of this like this. There's a comatose conduit.

Matthew 1:17:37

Are.

Dave 1:17:46

And it's spreading something like they're just bits of it because obviously this is not the O we're spreading hell into the world which is what's happening in the comic.

Cameron 1:17:48

Yeah.

Leonard 1:17:54

Right.

Matthew 1:17:57

yeah well yeah I mean but I don't know when I was told that I was about to watch a film by the guy who directed anatomy that was based on a comic that was like doom style hell on earth like gore fest you know, ah flesh. Like you know everything is made of flesh everywhere. You know nightmare stuff I was like this movie is going to be crazy and then I saw the cover of the of the alien with all the fingers and I'm just like hell yeah and then and then I get a sad sad man for 2 hours

Dave 1:18:17

Yeah, that's what I thought it was going to be more of that I know Sorry Ah, yeah, yeah I high hope to myself. Do um, just from the autopsy.

Cameron 1:18:34

E.

Matthew 1:18:35

Yeah.

Leonard 1:18:36

Ah, are are you saying Matt that you're disappointed that you didn't get a ah featurling film of all the excise event horizon viscera.

Matthew 1:18:47

Yeah I mean a little bit a little bit I was kind of promised the fireworks factor here and we did go to the Box Factory Um, but you know boxes are fun too. I guess.

Leonard 1:18:53

He.

Dave 1:19:00

It's the wish version of a event horizon.

Leonard 1:19:05

Oh there we go that That's the title That's the title you did it dave you. You came up with the title. Ah.

Matthew 1:19:06

Yeah, that's it Yeah, ah.

Cameron 1:19:07

Yeah, yeah, yeah, um.

Dave 1:19:12

Ah I thought we had a couple ah good good ones in there already.

Matthew 1:19:13

Yeah.

Leonard 1:19:18

Ah, now that that's the that's the best 1 honestly which version of Venn Horizon is the best title that we've gotten so far.

Dave 1:19:25

Yeah, yeah, so that's the first volume the other 2 um, are it's a continuation of the tail. Um that I don't think needed to be continued like once it did its wrap up. Um.

Cameron 1:19:39

And.

Dave 1:19:42

It feels like they and they use like I don't think it was all written in one go and then took time to look with a different artist to do the rest of it. It feels like they did the first part maybe had like some script or some ideas that they're going to do and then did the movie and then use the movie. Inform like the ah the back half of the comic because it doesn't it still do it. They didn't back off on the gore. Um, what? what the movie or what the comic does do is it brings in these um manifestation.

Matthew 1:20:03

Oh.

Dave 1:20:19

Of the empty man into our reality is like weird demon things and they they like they don't look great. They're they're like Alien Tentacle Yeah, they're like tentacle body but then a person torso.

Cameron 1:20:21

And.

Matthew 1:20:30

Are these the Venom looking things.

Cameron 1:20:33

Yeah, yeah. And.

Dave 1:20:39

And then a multi eyed headed just they're not scary. They're just kind of boring. Um, yeah.

Matthew 1:20:39

Um, yeah.

Leonard 1:20:44

Like predictably like love crafty and kind of entities.

Matthew 1:20:49

Yeah, anytime you try to put down on a ah comic page something that's supposed to be unknowable or whatever. It's.

Dave 1:20:57

I Just maybe wouldn't have done the Humanoid Torso It didn't help it again. It's real hyper musclely like I just I don't know it wasn't it wasn't working for me. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah, exaggerated like.

Matthew 1:21:02

Yeah I think it's one of the it's ah it's on one of the covers of these guys. Yeah, it looks like Venom like it. It looks kind of like venom. Yeah.

Leonard 1:21:06

Oh you like like Comic Bookie Muscley. Okay, oh that's the worst like my.

Dave 1:21:15

Bodybuilders Yeah, it's It's not great.

Leonard 1:21:20

My my go to for like any conceptualization of like a love craft thing is like it kind of needs to look human but you need to give it more limbs than a human being would actually have yeah.

Cameron 1:21:30

Yeah, the specific.

Dave 1:21:32

I would eat them kind of gooey or something like andmor blobs would have been pulled off a would have been better. Give me shog off not like snail man these are like Bloodborne. Ah.

Matthew 1:21:32

Um, ah.

Leonard 1:21:40

Ah.

Matthew 1:21:47

Yeah.

Dave 1:21:48

But not yeah like they didn't make the the cut.

Leonard 1:21:48

Rejects? Yeah, ah, that's the worst thing that you can say about and ah creature design is like it's like blood born but like not good enough for bulletproof born.

Matthew 1:21:59

Yeah, you know what these guys I'm looking at a picture of them right now. Do you do you guys? Do you guys watch the max remember that series those little whatever those little things were called that is yeah.

Cameron 1:22:00

And.

Leonard 1:22:07

Yes I do the is oh yeah, yeah legs Arms teeth.

Cameron 1:22:08

3

Dave 1:22:09

Um, yeah.

Matthew 1:22:14

Ah, that would have been way better in this thing's stead just something that is like legs and teeth and yeah.

Dave 1:22:19

Yeah, that would have been cooler. They did not they just like hey let's do the Max Torso and then give him tentacle legs and without a cool totem mask head. Yeah, they're they're okay.

Matthew 1:22:27

Yeah.

Leonard 1:22:31

Um, oh yeah.

Dave 1:22:38

Um, they're not great. No so the first one's okay, the first one's cool, but then they kept doing it and then it's like no, that's the only version that they do. It's like more of this thing.

Leonard 1:22:41

Don't lie Dave They're bad.

Cameron 1:22:43

Specific.

Matthew 1:22:51

Yeah.

Leonard 1:22:52

That's the only design that you've got. Yeah.

Dave 1:22:53

Yeah, and you're just like ah that's kind of boring and when there's like 5 of them. You're like okay I don't care about them. Um, so what where it boils down to is the Fbi agent. Um, they they're both kind of dismissed from like the case because of. Her partner disappeared. He wandered off into hellscape and didn't come back. Um, that didn't solve anything and the problem's still going on so he must have not been successful. Um, she's because she's been around too many of things. She's been infected. Ah, but she's.

Leonard 1:23:20

Um.

Dave 1:23:33

Been taking and he he he used his pharmaceutical powers I mean he's a doctor some kind of doctor. Um, and it made little pills for her. Yeah, so she can take the pills and she only has a finite supply of them. But they.

Leonard 1:23:42

Oh God it's turning into resident evil.

Cameron 1:23:45

Ah, yep.

Matthew 1:23:45

This is asked.

Leonard 1:23:51

In.

Dave 1:23:52

Tamping down like the hallucinations a little bit so she can kind of tell like what things are reality and what maybe is not reality because it's usually just terrifying and dismembered people. She's seeing and ah so she's on her own because she's.

Cameron 1:24:00

M.

Dave 1:24:12

Off the force and she's just rogue agent running around trying to solve. Whatever's going on and she finds another family. Um, where the wife um has has been exhibiting the symptoms and the husband has like kept her from harming herself. Foley and still trying to get the kids to school and think it's real weird it like that seems to be a secondary concern if the world is kind of falling apart I kids get the kids gets the kids to school to be fine. Um, yes, it's like that.

Cameron 1:24:31

First.

Matthew 1:24:42

Suspicious.

Leonard 1:24:43

Yeah, it's like Herschel's farm from the walking dad.

Cameron 1:24:46

So sixty fifty

Dave 1:24:48

They're trying to do normalcy when you're you're protecting the zombie like so the ah the agent finds out. She's been having run-ins with the whispering cult which is the the group of people that are trying to. Make more transmitters. Um, and they're after that that wife because they realized that she's I think they call him like like a sensitive or attuned or something where they they can see more stuff and haven't been immediately. They're not like immediately killing themselves so they're they're more receptive to to be able to spread the message. Um and the Cult's trying to to stage a um like kidnapper.

Leonard 1:25:30

Right.

Dave 1:25:41

Originally and then they decide instead. They're just going to kill the entire neighborhood and ah take her that way like there's no one to stop them then it's weird. Um the agent intercedes and um, they they make an escape. And they're being chased by the cult and then by more of those little hoppy demon things and it's It's all it's weird and then they realize that the demons have been trying to like trick the agent because she's now. A conduit also because she's been exposed to it the entire time. But then the drugs have been slowing it down so she can like still be functional. Yeah, ah okay so it gets better. Um, the doctor shows up.

Leonard 1:26:29

Um, ah, okay, all right.

Cameron 1:26:30

O.

Matthew 1:26:32

Ah, so.

Dave 1:26:37

Oh I didn't mention that the doctor the entire time has been like spitting up blood because he has stomach cancer I think and he's been. He's been just kind of like throwing him. That's why I didn't care if he threw himself into hell he's like I'm I'm gonna die anyway. So I'm gonna try to go stop The the.

Leonard 1:26:45

Now. Okay.

Dave 1:26:56

I'm empty man and the doctor shows back up in like the Nick of time and like he has a shotgun shoots. One of the demon things and he's like okay guys let's go. Um, so ah.

Leonard 1:27:10

I'm ash I'm Dr Ashe

Dave 1:27:15

He's He's weaponized his cancer because in in the Hell world His cancer became sentient weird baby things.

Leonard 1:27:22

Um, yes, ah ah yeah, give it to me give me this nonsense.

Matthew 1:27:24

Wow Oh man.

Cameron 1:27:27

Oh my God and.

Dave 1:27:31

And they're weird lumpy they're weird lumpy babies that are like crawled out of his gut So his his um his stomach intestine parts. It's just ah, it's empty and.

Matthew 1:27:37

Okay.

Dave 1:27:45

There's just strings of goop that come out like little umbilical cords and then he has like 3 little weird phantasm goopy babies. Um, that are on with shotguns. It's kind of cool I'm being honest, it's kind of cool but it's also like.

Leonard 1:27:58

Oh my God give me more of thelock I me in in it in inject this nonsense into my veins I'd need it more than anything.

Dave 1:28:04

What because nothing else. Nothing else is doing. It's just him. He's just the one weirdo. It's very it's very Clive Barker like what but and he has this. He's been gone for so long he has like a long crazy beard now. And yeah.

Matthew 1:28:18

Um.

Leonard 1:28:24

Yeah, of course he does. That's the that's how you you show the passage of time with a character a beard.

Dave 1:28:29

Yes, yes, you give him the lighthouse beard and yeah, it's It's pretty great actually and everyone's just like totally not phased by these cancer baby things.

Cameron 1:28:31

So.

Matthew 1:28:38

So.

Dave 1:28:47

<unk> like what the hell' is that and then you's just like it's my cancer and're like okay and they're sitting in a car and they're all bloody and goopy and they're just chilling in the backseat. It's like what is going on.

Leonard 1:28:54

Um I can't ah oh my God So I love comics.

Cameron 1:28:57

God.

Leonard 1:29:04

I Love Comic books so much because there is no way that any studio would greenlight this nonsense for a film. Yeah right? But like this is a.

Cameron 1:29:05

Ah.

Dave 1:29:06

Ah. Yeah, they couldn't they couldn't have like adapted this part of it. The first movie they could have done. They could have done the first one this probably not.

Matthew 1:29:16

Ah.

Leonard 1:29:21

It's like nonsense. Oh so is cancer is like a bunch of fetuses with shotguns now. No oh man, no.

Matthew 1:29:24

I Want to see a early two thousand s animated series of this this? Yeah yeah, after a on Flux this comes on there's cancer babies with guns like why? not? yeah.

Dave 1:29:28

They could have put it on like Mtv yeah you think you think head was too much.

Leonard 1:29:37

Ah, you know what I was gonna I was gonna say we can just Excise head from like existence and didn't just make this instead of head right? because I love the max and I don't want the max to not exist but like.

Dave 1:29:47

Um, it's the same thing. Yeah.

Matthew 1:29:48

Um. Right.

Leonard 1:29:55

Yeah, get rid of the head because that was garbage.

Dave 1:29:56

Say Alien in some dude's head This is like cancer babies with shotguns and they're hunting demons like what that How how is that not cool.

Cameron 1:30:00

Yeah.

Leonard 1:30:03

I Can't so I so I can't I can't hear the I can't hear the term the phrase cancer babies without without.

Matthew 1:30:09

Ah, it's like a hat on several hats. It's.

Dave 1:30:19

It's not. It's not good I.

Cameron 1:30:21

The.

Leonard 1:30:22

Thinking of them like trying to rework the Muppet babies theme song to accommodate cancer babies making your dreams come true was that an episode of so show that did that nanny.

Matthew 1:30:24

No no.

Dave 1:30:26

Um.

Matthew 1:30:29

That was the episode. They couldn't show.

Cameron 1:30:39

E.

Leonard 1:30:41

The the the God the godhead figure that was just a pair of legs get weird cancer.

Matthew 1:30:50

We don't know why they're all orphans.

Dave 1:30:51

Ah, anyway, so so okay, it's still it's in Hell they're just an idea so it's not killing them even though his stomach is gone in the back in the real world when he came back.

Leonard 1:31:01

Um, ah okay, right? They're real.

Dave 1:31:08

Well, they're real, but it's killing him. He can't exist like this with no bowels and and yeah, it's now working for him. Um, so ah, he he comes to realize.

Leonard 1:31:13

Thank you, you don't you don't say Dave ah.

Cameron 1:31:16

The the.

Dave 1:31:25

That his partner because we're all the empty man but his partner is more the empty man because she's tuned in but not checked out and he he recounts his what actually happened.

Leonard 1:31:34

No of course. Ah.

Cameron 1:31:36

Ah.

Dave 1:31:44

When he was in the hell world. He's like okay I found she's like you know you didn't change anything. You didn't kill him you he's unkellable or whatever and he's like Nope I killed him but he was like the last.

Cameron 1:31:44

So.

Dave 1:31:59

Or the most recent in a line of like thousands of empty man like we are all empty man and when people die they see that there's no god and they so they want to instill order so they climb to the top of hell and claim to be the new god. To try to like reorganize everything but um, people are dumb and their thoughts are like messy and it just creates garbage and the empty man exists to like as a siphon and a. Nexus kind of of of funneling and filtering people's thoughts to create the order and the the heaven that he wants and he can create it. But ah when you. When you take thoughts from everybody. You can't you can't take everything you just take like the winning things and then you chuck the rest of it and the stuff that he's chucking is what's making hell like it's just the the junk from people's heads that's chaos.

Leonard 1:32:57

Ah.

Dave 1:33:07

Um, and that's what's being sent out in his transmissions like on accident and that's what the cult's latching onto is this garbage and they want to just spread that because they think that that's what heaven is but if that's just the junk. Um.

Leonard 1:33:24

This is.

Dave 1:33:25

So he's like yeah there was like a bunch of them and I just kept killing them. Um, so what we need is we need a functioning empty man that is still like cognizant and aware but can still see like both sides of the coin.

Cameron 1:33:36

I.

Dave 1:33:42

Like you have to be able to see the the heaven thing and the hell so you can sort it properly and then send the heaven part out and not the crap. So I'm going to take you my partner and install you as the new God empty man.

Cameron 1:33:50

Near.

Matthew 1:33:56

Um.

Leonard 1:33:58

Um I was I was about to say Dave to be perfectly honest to make another cultural reference because I'm really good at doing that. That's ah he's essentially ah looking for a Frank Reynolds ah who can be the garbage man.

Cameron 1:34:13

E.

Leonard 1:34:15

That eats trash from it's always sunny in Philadelphia.

Dave 1:34:19

Yes, which is terrible. So yeah, that's that and that's what it ends like he installs her um as a super glowing God figure and um, then they're like a.

Cameron 1:34:30

Yeah, yeah.

Leonard 1:34:34

Oh that's.

Dave 1:34:44

There'll have to be a battle and then it cuts to like the cult people because there's there's a whole other story I'm not going to get and do with like what the cult guys are doing because it's too much and they like the the battle is upon us have to wage war spread chaos. They're going to start us monopolies ah the battle and they raise their.

Leonard 1:34:50

Right. Um. Ah, with.

Dave 1:35:04

Shotguns and then the the cancer things raise their shotgun. You know they don't really what like that's intent of it and then ends like the battle is engaged. It's it's okay, it's like okay I mean I get what you did.

Cameron 1:35:08

Yeah, so.

Dave 1:35:20

You could have just you should have just stopped the first one where you just entered the door and was like I'm going to go fight hell and okay, that's great and then just stop it. That's it doesn't didn't need to didn't need to clarify that you know but they did and that's what we got so I would say like just read the first volume and then.

Cameron 1:35:29

Yep, yeah.

Leonard 1:35:30

Yep. Yeah, and then it don't and don't because it turns into a doom comic. Apparently.

Dave 1:35:39

The other two.

Matthew 1:35:39

Heard it here first anytime a portal the hell opens in the guy's answer is I got to get a gun. It's just like oh okay I've seen the song and dance 4

Leonard 1:35:56

Um, that literally only works for doom. Um, um.

Dave 1:35:58

I Think it was okay here because it didn't didn't like resolve it. It didn't show anything happening. You're like okay maybe it won't work or it will don't know like that's fine. Make it ambiguous leave it there.

Leonard 1:36:06

Oh that's fair. Well I mean I mean it did resolve because he comes back and he's got a bunch of man could you imagine like a production company trying to like adapt. This.

Cameron 1:36:07

E. Ah, man.

Leonard 1:36:25

And then they've got to get the like cancer fetus tumors like personalities. Yeah yeah, like the ah tooth fairy from Darkness falls before it was named Darkness falls.

Dave 1:36:29

Um, I just wanted the Todd Mcfarlane toy

Cameron 1:36:32

Yeah, yeah, and.

Dave 1:36:38

Yeah I like that movie. It's not good but I like it I keep ink and I get it confused with the darkness which was a really bad movie.

Leonard 1:36:43

I I Also like that movie so but a really good game.

Cameron 1:36:52

Oh yeah, great game I Loved that.

Dave 1:36:54

Um, yeah. I Just never forget that like I I took my I convinced my grandpa to go see the darkness with me because I just he he was visiting and I was like oh let's go watch a movie. Oh look the darkness I mean no, that's that's the ghost in the darkness which silence fine I mean.

Leonard 1:37:07

Oh isn't that the one about the lions. Oh okay, oh man, it's so hard for me to keep track of these movies that have weird names like.

Cameron 1:37:13

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave 1:37:16

Thematically Maybe there's some problems going on with that.

Leonard 1:37:25

The darkness and the ghost of end the darkness.

Dave 1:37:28

Well, the darkness came out a little bit after the tooth fairy. Um, and it's with Anna Paquin and it's it's a family that buys an old house and they go to like like go to live in it. And the house haunted. But it's haunted by weird old naked ladies. It's it's a weird movie. It's not great. There's darkness in it. It's like that. Um, oh no, what's some Ah yeah, getting at it. There's a.

Leonard 1:37:46

Okay.

Cameron 1:37:55

Ah, man.

Dave 1:38:05

Little girl and she is in the old house and then she meets these things that she thinks are tooth fairies I like that one. Yeah you presented it I think he didn't make it.

Leonard 1:38:12

Oh oh oh, that's the ah weird Gilmo de toro thing that he was yeah he was presented it because that's the only way I can ever remember anything is is it.

Dave 1:38:23

Yeah. This Yes, the sorrow. Yeah, that one was weird and also horrifying. Yeah I think they killed a little girl I don't know I don't think it ended well.

Cameron 1:38:29

So.

Leonard 1:38:29

Gimma Der Turrow was attached to ah yeah, that was the one that had like the weird Rat creatures that lived in the furnace right. Well I mean but and also like the orphanage.

Dave 1:38:45

It ended like you know, um, the pans labyrinth and everything where it's just bad any the orphanage. Yeah, he likes see the he likes to present a lot of those and not make them It's like maybe I've stopped making terrible endings for children. I've done that I've been I've done it twice like very vividly with Devil's backbone and ah pan's labyrinth.

Leonard 1:39:10

Listen children aren't going to learn unless think unless things go really bad for them. So I am all for the Brothers Grim treatment of children in fucking media. Yeah, exactly.

Cameron 1:39:10

And.

Dave 1:39:20

I Was to say that's the other children learning from bad things happening to other kids which they should have learned in the empty man.

Matthew 1:39:22

Um.

Cameron 1:39:24

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 1:39:25

Yeah.

Leonard 1:39:29

Yeah, yeah, yes, show Yes, show your show your child the empty man and set them on the right path for life.

Cameron 1:39:30

Yes.

Dave 1:39:36

Yeah, the path which is don't go near any bridges and stop blowing on bottles you find on the street and if you're traveling and you find a bone whistle Maybe don't blow in that.

Leonard 1:39:43

Yeah, and don't trust any girl name Amanda there we go. That's.

Matthew 1:39:44

Starts. Yeah.

Cameron 1:39:45

I Mean yeah, that's fair, yeah.

Leonard 1:39:53

Yeah, and also um, question whether you're actually a real person and can exist in in reality. Well never thank you cameron.

Dave 1:39:59

And don't join a cult.

Cameron 1:40:01

No never join cults. He yeah so the.

Leonard 1:40:07

I'm glad that we agree on that point.

Matthew 1:40:09

And if you're going to take over an entire town invest in like a good barber because they obviously didn't and I now.

Cameron 1:40:15

Yes, assist The sister.

Leonard 1:40:21

Ah, ah, ah, a man I wish I had a really good Wi Yeah now.

Dave 1:40:22

Um, maybe she just had a really good wig maker that could look so realistic.

Cameron 1:40:28

Yeah, yeah.

Matthew 1:40:28

So.

Dave 1:40:34

Um, and it turns out that the 2 pay was the alien the whole time.

Leonard 1:40:38

Ah, man if only like if if if it turned ah man if if so if um, not no, no what you? well? Yes, but I'm I'm yes, but but like if.

Dave 1:40:44

It's just witches like.

Matthew 1:40:46

No, it's the episode of the Simpsons where homer gets snakes hair. that's that's yeah

Cameron 1:40:52

And.

Leonard 1:40:55

Um, not Nora Amanda if Amanda during the sequence where she's shaving Paul's face while he's in the coma in the hospital but doesn't touch his hair and it just slides off his head over his face. And then attaches itself to James and she's like you're the empty man now I'm like sold this is a movie this is art. This is art.

Dave 1:41:12

This is what. So no, he has to sit back down on the chair and then she's just lovingly shaving his head.

Matthew 1:41:27

Um.

Leonard 1:41:28

Well, yeah to prep him for the the alien ah the alien empty man air that that he will now have and he's got a giant glorious. Pompadour after he shoots Paul in the head and walks out of the hospital room and everyone drops to their knees and I'm like you know what.

Dave 1:41:45

Um. That's like a yeah like a punch perm from like a Japanese gangster.

Matthew 1:41:59

Perfect. Yeah, no, that's how you fix this movie. That's yeah, that's that's it.

Cameron 1:41:59

Ah, yes, yes, perfect perfect.

Leonard 1:42:01

Um, yes, that's ah, that's that's literally that's actually unironically how you fix this movie like instead of the long sequence of the empty man in his mindscape.

Cameron 1:42:08

The.

Leonard 1:42:15

Like vomiting into his mouth. It's the hair crawling over Pauls Paul's comatose body onto James's head and attaching itself. We fix this movie. Everyone congratulations.

Matthew 1:42:34

Yep there you go twentieth century Fox enjoy.

Leonard 1:42:35

Congratulations like the end like the end of Evan gallion. We have fixed this movie.

Dave 1:42:43

Okay, let's let's send us home. We've we're done here our work Our work is done. We fixed it. It's our. That's our new mission discuss the monsters and then.

Matthew 1:42:47

The.

Leonard 1:42:51

Ah.

Cameron 1:42:52

Um, yes, yes.

Dave 1:43:00

Fix the problems that they had showing them. Oh okay, Leonard where can folks find you on the interwebs.

Leonard 1:43:11

People can find me on Twitter ah, occasionally by searching at Dr Faust is dead. People can also find me on Youtube even more occasionally by searching at Dr Faust is dead.

Cameron 1:43:13

So.

Leonard 1:43:27

Matt where can people find you on the internet.

Matthew 1:43:30

Ah, people can find me on Twitter and on Tumblr at the ugly machine I make arms and armor from recycled stuff and yeah, that's pretty much it ah Cameron working with a fine people find you.

Cameron 1:43:43

You can 99.95 of the time find me on Twitter at night underscore Twitter that's night without a k for photos of cats. Ah my tattoo general complaints about australian weather. It's it's actually getting cold ah by my standard. It's.

Matthew 1:44:01

Assess.

Cameron 1:44:03

Um, and if you if you just want to see internet content ah feel free to follow me on Tumblr swaby blog I literally just reblog stuff I never post anything original because that's my life.

Leonard 1:44:05

Um.

Cameron 1:44:20

Ah, Dave did you mention where we can find you? Oh wow okay gaze behind me.

Dave 1:44:23

I'm everywhere I'm I'm not I'm not a wig. Ah yeah, ah so this week feels like um yeah, you can find me I yeah this. But.

Matthew 1:44:24

Oh crap we got tulpa Dave.

Leonard 1:44:30

The the empty Dave.

Matthew 1:44:34

The marshmallow man from Ghostbusters was a tulpa I'm trying to think of other tulpa as I've seen in popular media. There's been a lot.

Cameron 1:44:41

Yeah.

Dave 1:44:41

Ah lot. It's it's been a thing. Yeah that that's a whole other. Um, what's that Tv tropes usually link through there like there are other information's not great, but it's not great.

Matthew 1:44:46

You think they hang out. Oh yeah, it's a website I try not to frequent.

Leonard 1:44:50

Yeah, no, let's not invoke that name.

Dave 1:45:00

The media tab works sometimes that one there anyway. Yeah you can find me on does it I didn't look for that tab. Why are you looking for that Tab Matthew

Matthew 1:45:04

That's a website that sure lets you know when there's feet in a movie. Oh boy that and I am Db I don't know why but like I every time I like try to like look up information about a film I'm like I'm never using the internet Again, you guys are the are the worst just.

Dave 1:45:18

You just keep reproving it to yourself. It happens.

Matthew 1:45:20

Gone forever. Yeah, every time so hot is is the stove still hot. Yeah, it's still hot. It's it's still hot.

Cameron 1:45:21

I turn and the minute unfortunately.

Dave 1:45:28

Yeah, all right. You can find me on Twitter at sentin underscore plus you can find the podcast on Twitter at Mon Underscore demonster or at monsterdear.monster that is us for this week we will be back next week with I don't know what what will we be back with.

Cameron 1:45:50

So something. Um.

Matthew 1:45:53

Well well, it's everything and nothing about that. It will be made manifest. Yeah, we'll think about it real hard. The.

Cameron 1:45:57

Who yes something. So yes, it will appear.

Dave 1:45:57

Yes, something we'll think about it real hard in order up here. No but we will say goodbye here.

Leonard 1:46:06

I I'm going to manifest the Bye Bye Man I.

Matthew 1:46:13

Ah, none of this happened by.

Dave 1:46:15

By folks.

Cameron 1:46:17

Bye-bye.

Leonard 1:46:18

Um, Goodbye. Ah. Um.